'Stickin": Carville explains the case for Loyalty to a Judas

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Carville considers loyalty a lost virtue.

"Nowhere in the entire world is disloyalty more rewarded and rewarded well than in Washington."

According to Polonius, the highest loyalty is to oneself, but it helps to remember that Polonius was an idiot.

It's been said that if you want a friend in Washington, you should buy a dog. Unfortunately, there's some truth to that: there are few places in the world where the turncoats and careerists are so highly rewarded and where loyalty is equated with stupidity. Luckily, another bit of wisdom about the Beltway is also true: the people in Washington aren't like the ones in the rest of the country. The American people treasure loyalty. They stick by a friend when he needs them. They forgive him when he's wrong. They understand the difference between politics and friendship. They are true to their ideals and their schools, loyal to their families.

Some may even share EM Forster's preference:

If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country.

I have always suspected that a bank with "Fidelity" in its title was going to lose my money. The mere assertion of loyalty is often enough to signal betrayal. One of the weaknesses of loyalty is that unlike friendship, it requires some outward demonstration or declaration, and so invites insincerity. It is also, by implication, unconditional, and suggests that though you do not agree with the person or institution to which you are expected to stick, you will do so anyway. In certain types of people, this practically guarantees treason.

Disloyalty That Merits An Insult

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2008/03/28/AR2008032802826. html

Last Friday the New York Times asked me to comment on New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson's endorsement of Sen. Barack Obama for president. For 15 years, Richardson served with no small measure of distinction as the representative of New Mexico's 3rd Congressional District. But he gained national stature -- and his career took off -- when President Bill Clinton appointed him U.S. ambassador to the United Nations and later made him energy secretary.

So, when asked on Good Friday about Richardson's rejection of the Clintons, the metaphor was too good to pass by. I compared Richardson to Judas Iscariot. (And Matthew Dowd is right: Had it been the Fourth of July, I probably would have called him Benedict Arnold.)

I believed that Richardson's appointments in Bill Clinton's administration and his longtime personal relationship with both Clintons, combined with his numerous assurances to the Clintons and their supporters that he would never endorse any of Sen. Hillary Clinton's opponents, merited a strong response.

I was fully aware of what kind of response calling someone a Judas would evoke.

Certainly, it didn't take long for the resign-renounce-denounce complex to kick into high gear.

In a bit of bloviation that brought joy to my heart, Bill O'Reilly pronounced himself "appalled."

Keith Olbermann, about two degrees shy of the temperature necessary for self-combustion, quipped, "So if he's Judas in this analogy, who's Jesus?"

Even Diane Sawyer took the analogy to the extreme, questioning, "Are you saying that he made a deal of some kind when you talk about 30 shekels?"

Others opined that my remark was "tactless" and "ugly."

Heck, I give myself some credit for managing to get the Clinton and Obama campaigns to agree on something -- that neither wanted to be associated with my remarks.

I know enough to know that comparing a former Cabinet secretary and sitting governor to Judas is inflammatory and provocative. I expected the coverage that it evoked.
Was it a desperate gambit for attention? Was I just trying to prove my point that both Samantha Power's resignation from the Obama campaign for calling Sen. Clinton a monster and the Obama campaign hysterically promoting Geraldine Ferraro's misguided statements were equally silly and superficial?

Not really. I was saying what I felt as an individual who -- with no encouragement from the Clintons but as someone who is proud to consider himself a friend of theirs -- thought that Richardson had done something deeply disloyal.

Earlier this month I decried the political environment in which, by whining about every little barb, candidates seem to be trying to win the election through a war of staff-resignation attrition. Politics is a messy business, but campaigning prepares you for governing. It prepares you to get hit, stand strong and, if necessary, hit back. I've worked on enough campaigns to know that the most aggrieved candidate rarely emerges victorious. And for all of the hypersensitivity we're seeing this cycle, this campaign has not been particularly negative or nasty compared with previous elections.

Fully aware of this supercharged environment in which the slightest slight is elevated to the most egregious insult, I waded in -- okay, dove in -- by demonstrating what constitutes a real insult.

I believe that loyalty is a cardinal virtue. Nowhere in the world is loyalty so little revered and tittle-tattle so greatly venerated as in Washington. I was a little-known political consultant until Bill Clinton made me. When he came upon hard times, I felt it my duty -- whatever my personal misgivings -- to stick by him. At the very least, I would have stayed silent. And maybe that's my problem with what Bill Richardson did. Silence on his part would have spoken loudly enough.

Most of the stuff I've ever said is pretty insignificant and by in large has been said off the cuff and without much thought to the potential consequences. That was not the case in this instance. Bill Richardson's response was that the Clinton people felt they were entitled to the presidency. In my mind, that is a debatable hypothesis. But, even more than that, I know that a former president of the United States who appointed someone to two Senate-confirmed positions is entitled to have his phone calls returned.

If Richardson was going to turn on the Clintons the way he did, I see no problem in saying what I said. Because if loyalty is one virtue, another is straight talk. And if Democrats can't handle that, they're going to have a hard time handling a Republican nominee who is seeking the presidency with that as his slogan.



Display:


Re: 'Stickin"'Carville explains the (2.00 / 2)

Ideally I'd be both, but if I had to make a choice, I'd rather be right than loyal. I salute Bill Richardson for his bravery in rejecting the Clinton smear machine.


by amiches on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:29:15 PM EST

my god, to you - selfisfness = bravery (2.00 / 1)

and the cultists wonder why we will fight them to the bitter end.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:34:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: my god, to you - selfisfness = bravery (2.00 / 1)

You have the nerve to call someone a cultist while vowing to fight on "to the bitter end"?


by amiches on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

SEEMS I DO (2.00 / 1)


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:49:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SEEMS I DO (none / 0)

Please take this with the humor intended:

http://history1900s.about.com/od/worldwa rii/a/soldiersurr.htm


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Carville is an idiot (2.00 / 1)

This is why Hillary is losing. A lot of her superdelegate support is coming from people who owe them favors or expect repayment in the future. The idea that a person's vote, especially one as important as a super delegate vote in such an important election, is to be bartered and traded like a baseball card is crazy. The arrogance of the Clinton camp knows no bounds.


by highgrade on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:33:20 PM EST

Re: Carville is an idiot (2.00 / 1)

aah the favor schitck. Well at least the Clinton did them favors whereas Obama is literally buying his superdelegates.


by tarheel74 on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:39:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carville is an idiot (none / 0)

How is he literally buying them?


by interestedbystander on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:48:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carville is an idiot (2.00 / 1)

and why by god do you think big time insiders like dodd have come out for obama?

are you so naive or lost to believe that they too buy the obama nation bs?

do you uderstnd that lil about politics?

people high up in the game dont do the drugs theyre selln YOU pal.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:03:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'Stickin": (2.00 / 2)

This line is so incredibly insulting to superdelegates. This is not a medieval system of kingships with personalistic loyalties. We have a democracy and they have the right and, indeed the obligation, to support who they see as the best candidate.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:43:07 PM EST

so like Polonius... (none / 0)

and just as bright.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:52:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'Stickin": Carville (2.00 / 1)

Soprano ethics.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:43:27 PM EST

least he had some. (none / 0)

camp Obama is of the do ANYTHING to ANYBODY to win school.

no loyalty.

NO ETHICS whatsoever.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:55:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your caps key is sticking. (none / 0)

Again.


by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:06:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

TOO BAD HUH? (none / 0)


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:15:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I wasn't sure you were aware of the problem. (none / 0)


by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:23:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

youre a always have the last word guy arent ya? (none / 0)


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:36:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: least he had some. (none / 0)

except to his pastor....but that kind of loyalty is bad beccuase it is Obama loyalty. Now I get it.


Ida B. refused to stand in the back during women's suffrage parades
by Ida B on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:54:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: least he had some. (none / 0)

Sorry, loyalty to your ''king'' is important. The reasons that Richardson gave for endorsing Obama was laughable. Richardson sounded like a Rush Obama parody commericial. His reason was we had Bush,Clinton,Bush and we don't need another Clinton. Nevermind the fact that Obama is perhaps the most ill-suited and unprepared person in my lifetime to run for president!

Richardson's ascent in politics was due to the Bill Clinton. He ''owed''Clinton some loyalty. He promised not to endorse one of Hill's competitors and he should have kept his word to his political lord. What he did was ''political'' at a venal level, even for a politician.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:59:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Patronage democracy (none / 0)

A rather silly and sexist reasoning.

Because Bill Richardson worked for Bill Clinton he should be loyal to his wifes political ambitions ???

I hope BHO will select people, based on qualifications and not to buy future loyalty.


by hebi on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:57:27 PM EST

Every appointment Bush has made... (none / 0)

... has been made on the basis of loyalty and not competence or qualifications.

Bill Clinton didn't do that as President. He picked competent, able people to fill key slots.

Why does Carville now insist on a loyalty test?

And why have so many Clinton backers spewed so much vicious bile about every prominent Dem who has endorsed Obama?


by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:04:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Having read Carville's justification (none / 0)

... for reiterating his insult to Richardson, I have to ask... What has Hillary Clinton ever done for Richardson? Carville's piece seems to be all about how Bill Clinton boosted Richardson's career. Does that mean Richardson owes lifetime allegiance to Bill's wife?

Odd reasoning, indeed.


by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:01:54 PM EST

Carville's justification (none / 0)

explaining this out to you would be as pointless as explaining calculus to a pig.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:05:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You must lead an interesting life. (none / 0)

Do you live on a farm?


by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no (none / 0)

are you a pig?


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:13:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fixed the caps key I see. (none / 0)

Congrats.


by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:14:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

SO ARE YOU A PIG? (none / 0)

OR NO?


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:18:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll answer your question if you'll answer mine (none / 0)

... first.

At the top of this thread, I asked you a question. You still haven't answered. But you have suggested that I may be a pig.

I will answer your question after you answer my initial question.

(Looks like your caps-lock key is broken again.)


by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no (none / 0)

i live in Washington, with a dog.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:45:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Heh! (none / 0)

Nice one!

I meant the question about what Hillary Clinton ever did for Richardson.


by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:47:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'Stickin": Carville (none / 0)

Wow, if this is typical of the reasoning among Hillary's people why would you want them in the White House? Carville's thinking is so similar to Bush it's scary. It's the kind of "you pat my back, I'll pat yours" that got an Arabic horse commissioner to be the head of FEMA.

Why would you even post this, if you're trying to help Hillary win?


by animated on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:04:28 PM EST

Judas's (none / 0)

 "numerous assurances to the Clintons and their supporters that he would never endorse any of Sen. Hillary Clinton's opponents, merited a strong response."


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'Stickin": Carville (none / 0)

A truly brilliant analysis by Mr. Carville.  

And how odd that only in the anti-Clinton MSM and Obama World can Hillary perceived to be losing.

Why?  Because she trails by 130 or so delegates, and a popular vote lead that excludes both Michigan and Florida?

Why?  Because she is looking down the road to another double-digit major state win in Pennsylvania, making her the winner in every major state primary except Senator Obama's own Illinois and his very close edge in Missouri?

Why?  Because Obama has done very well in Red State America, which isn't likely to go Democratic in the fall anyway?

Why?  Because pollsters, proven egregiously wrong all year, tell us that she is less popular than Obama?

Why?  Because also-rans like Richardson, Bradley, Ted Kennedy, Kerry, and DNC Chairperson Howard Dean want her to go?

Why?  Because Janet Napolitano, the Kennedys, Deval Patrick, John Kerry and Bill Richardson are ignoring the will of their own states?

Through the prism of political passions are determined winners and losers.

The MSM, the pundits, pollsters, all fawning over Obama and many times wrong about his prospects all year, see Obama as the inevitable winner.

But they once saw Bill Clinton as resigning or being impeached.  And they once thought Hillary would never make it to the New York United States Senate.

For that matter, they are also the crowd that thought Rudy Giuliani, 9/11's "America's Mayor" could not be beaten.

And that crowd has written Hillary's epitaph about a dozen times since January.

She'll still very much politically alive and "in it to win it."

We in the Clinton crowd long ago stopped expecting any praise from the MSM.  We know that every day brings another slap-in-the-face from persons the Clintons have helped and fostered.

But that's alright.  We don't need them.  We have in the Clintons the last successful Democratic team fighting for us.

With the Clintons, one doesn't really need much more.  They endure and they survive.  And they triumph, long after the other side can no longer see the reality of how they endure and triumph.


by lambros on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:06:29 PM EST

ext polls have her up by close to a millon (none / 0)

amongst dems.

these folks have no idea what's coming.

the clintons are like churchll.

they will never give us up.

never.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:12:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

US (none / 0)

Even though large tracts of States have fallen or may fall into the grip of  odious apparatus of  rule, we shall not flag or fail.

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight On the land, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our land, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender...


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:26:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill "Judas" Richardson has been (none / 0)

an embarrassment. He previously stated that if you are a Hispanic Superdelegate or a Governor you shouldn't go against what your constituents vote. New Mexico and the Hispanic vote in New Mexico went to Hillary and he betrayed his state and Hispanic voters in his state.

I remember early in the primary the Obama 527 known as HuffingtonPost published hit jobs on Richardson accusing him of sexual harassment. The Obama fan base was quick to jump on the stories and slime an opponent of The Chosen One. I hope Obama puts him on the ticket and their smear job comes back to bite them in the ass.


"Barack did Hillary just like he did Alice Palmer. He was 'riding dirty'"
by LatinoVoter on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:23:29 PM EST

all us Clintonites know stories about Rchardson (none / 0)

Richardson THINKS his "dating history" will never be mentioned, but in his act of disloyalty, greed and ambition...he's been bamoozled by the chi-town mob, they'd never let him have the VP slot just because of it.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'Stickin": Carville explains t (none / 0)

We have a president now who values loyalty over competence. That's not what we want. We want people who base their decisions on competence and best person for the job.
by Becky G on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:28:15 PM EST

richardson made a deal (none / 0)

and everyonde knowi.

and he lied to many, many people when he said he wouldnt.

he has no honor.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:41:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Judas (none / 0)

Its nice to see the Clintonites embracing that awesome loyalty above all else strategy that has made Bush one of America's greatest leaders! (Can you guys please tell me how in the hell this belief is good for America-- as opposed to the Clintons)

Can I please get some clarification-- do you want people to vote with their sates or not, because I'm pretty sure Obama would be good with that (it would gain him 25-30 supers, it would cost him some majors but the net would benefit Obama).


by Socraticsilence on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:26:56 PM EST

Judas's (none / 0)


 "numerous assurances to the Clintons and their supporters that he would never endorse any of Sen. Hillary Clinton's opponents, merited a strong response."
by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:33:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judas (none / 0)

Richardson should have stayed quiet until the convention, or until there was a nominee. Being quiet would have spoke volumes, but at least he would not have stabbed the Clintons in the back. This was down and dirty politics. Richardson would not have gotten where he is without the Clintons. He is a lackluster campaigner, at best. Running against Clinton was one thing (he knew he didn't have a shot, but was hoping for VP), but to endorse her opponent was another. I've lost all respect for the man. Well, the truth is, I didn't have much respect for him anyway, after he stopped the recount in NM in 2004.

And, all you Obama supporters who are praising him now, would be tearing him a new one if he had endorsed Clinton.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:38:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Loyalty is regarded highly (none / 0)

in Mafia, crime families, dictatorships, biker gangs, etc.  Loyalty by itself isn't good or bad.  It depends on what you are loyal to.

But I am baffled by Carville's idea of loyalty.  Richardson worked for Bill Clinton.  Clinton's wife runs for president.  So it's JUDAS-LIKE BETRAYAL for Richardson to endorse somebody other than Bill Clinton's wife.

Just how much do you owe an ex-boss?????

I can understand loyalty to somebody who saved your life on the battlefield, to your father, to your favorite professional wrestler, etc.  But to your ex-boss?  I loved some of my ex-bosses, but there is not one of them that I would feel obligated to such that I would need to endorse his wife for president if I disagreed with her on the issues.

See, this goes beyond the issue of LOYALTY.  This goes to the issue of ENTITLEMENT.  For some reason, if you ever worked for the Clintons, you're part of Da Family, and youse wise guys can'ts just leave Da Family.  Da Family leaves you!  Capiche?

And there have been a lot of people kicked rather unceremoniously out of the Clinton circle of influence over the years, haven't there?  I'm not going to compile a list, but you can make your own, because you know its true.  When they are done with people, they are done.  Clinton loyalty is a one-way street.

This weird concept of Clinton loyalty even extends to their donors.  I diaried this at the Orange Satan a year ago.

Diary Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:20:38 PM PDT

From New York Magazine:

   "There are some people the Clintons consider Clinton people who have gotten behind Barack," a longtime friend of Bill and Hillary's explains to me. "And there will be total retribution if the opportunity presents itself."

   Total retribution? You're joking, right?

   "I'm not joking. They're not going to audit somebody's tax return or anything. But once you've been in the Clinton camp, once they think you're part of the team, once you've helped them and they've helped you and you then go somewhere else--I just think it's very hard to crawl back into their good graces. I'm not saying it won't happen. But they won't forget. They may take you back eventually, but they won't forget."

Earlier than that, there was the David Geffen flap.  LA Times on that:

   In Hollywood, Clinton campaign officials have moved aggressively to limit Obama's inroads and force longtime donors to back the former first lady.

   Her campaign chairman, Terry McAuliffe, recently warned donors that Clinton would remember those who did not back her. "You are either with us, or you're against us," McAuliffe told potential donors during a dinner at Saban's house.

   So far, the appeal has not succeeded. Some, such as Geffen and fellow DreamWorks studio co-founder Jeffrey Katzenberg, have been drawn to Obama, 45, while others are following the lead of Norman Lear in supporting multiple candidates to foster a dynamic debate.

   When Lear, the legendary TV sitcom producer, was told of McAuliffe's comments this month, he responded: "What's Hillary going to do? Jail me?"

The articles may be behind firewalls now, so you'll have to google alternate sources, but the links worked a year ago.

Honestly, I don't know how Richardson could have stayed with the Clintons and considered himself a real man.  He did the right thing.  He didn't wuss out.  He gets my respect.  You have to have a funny idea of loyalty indeed to think he owed the Clintons more than a Hallmark card every Christmas.


I don't give a shit whom you vote for.
by Dumbo on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 07:49:24 PM EST


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